LIBRARY CAMPAIGNER Robbie Gibson has voiced his thanks on Facebook in the wake of Thursday night’s sell-out concert in Upper Norwood joint library:
“Massive shout to all those involved in the sell out gig in the library: Project Audio on 0208 771 1620 in Crystal Palace for donating the PA system and to Simon Gaiger who was a brilliant sound engineer on the desk;
to Dani and Herb, The Children, Alain, Barry, Ben, Sarah, Gez, JAIA, Franck, Marcina and the Lovebirds for a brilliant session; thanks Sainsburys for donating wine;
to Bryher, Rona, Michelle, Alex, Colin, Max, Viki and I’m sure many others who helped serve food and drink, do the door, sort out posters etc and to all of you who were in the audience.
“If you took some pictures please post them on the various facebook groups. “Apologies if I missed anyone.
“Palace you were terrific.”
Tag Archives: Upper Norwood Library Campaign
“PALACE YOU WERE TERRIFIC” (n.b: this is not a football item)
24 NovBE FLUSHED WITH PRIDE AT LIBRARY! (but please don’t give yourself a lift)
16 NovUPPER NORWOOD Joint Library is asking people to donate to a ‘flush fund’ to repair and upgrade the library loo which is currently out of order.
Improvements will cost £410.40 – with any money over potentially going to loo rolls or being put by for any other repairs and maintenance.
The ‘flush fund’ is just one area where the library is looking for help. Cutbacks mean that only one daily paper – the Daily Mail – is available. A notice in the foyer asks people to donate their own (read) newspapers – preferably on the same day. “They will be gratefully received” says the poster.
Signs also ask people not to use the lift – unless they are in a wheelchair, have a pram or trolley or heavy bag or cases – as part of a bid to cut the electricity bill.
NOTE: The above item set me thinking (Highly dangerous I know) . Would the library welcome Blu Tak, paper clips, envelopes, dusters, drawing pins, Mr Sheen, rubber bands, washing up liquid, lightbulbs, mouse plugs (to deter furry intruders), mouse mats (for computer mice), grand pianos etc? Every little helps, as they say. (I can’t ask the library staff as Croydon won’t let them talk to the press…..)
Improvements will cost £410.40 – with any money over potentially going to loo rolls or being put by for any other repairs and maintenance.
The ‘flush fund’ is just one area where the library is looking for help. Cutbacks mean that only one daily paper – the Daily Mail – is available. A notice in the foyer asks people to donate their own (read) newspapers – preferably on the same day. “They will be gratefully received” says the poster.
Signs also ask people not to use the lift – unless they are in a wheelchair, have a pram or trolley or heavy bag or cases – as part of a bid to cut the electricity bill.
NOTE: The above item set me thinking (Highly dangerous I know) . Would the library welcome Blu Tak, paper clips, envelopes, dusters, drawing pins, Mr Sheen, rubber bands, washing up liquid, lightbulbs, mouse plugs (to deter furry intruders), mouse mats (for computer mice), grand pianos etc? Every little helps, as they say. (I can’t ask the library staff as Croydon won’t let them talk to the press…..)
A THANKSGIVING Day benefit gig for the library is being held on November 22nd. Acts lined up include The Love Birds, The Indestructible Mr Herb Phelps, Franck Alba, Marcina Arnold, The Children, Dani Cali, Sarah Gamble, Ben Godfrey, Sir Barry, and Mr Jala.
There are only 100 tickets which are available from the library, price £5 (and refreshments will be served too) From 7.30pm.
Robert Gibson co-chair of the Upper Norwood Library Campaign said: “This is an opportunity too good to miss, “Crystal Palace’s finest musical talent brought together in a unique venue. “It is amazing how the community has rallied round to support our cherished library.”
FINALLY, congratulations to the Upper Norwood Library Campaign who were highly commended (runners up) for team of the year in the Croydon Guardian’s ‘Croydon Champions’ awards.
CROYDON SHOULD PAY 42 % OF LIBRARY FUNDING SAYS CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATE
15 NovCONSERVATIVE CANDIDATE Andy Stranack says Croydon council should provide 42 per cent of all future funding for Upper Norwood joint library.
He suggested the figure – which is based on the percentage of residents from Croydon borough being registered library members – at an informal meeting with library campaigners this morning (Thursday).
Mr Stranack told the meeting – held in the Little Palace cafe on Westow Hill after library staff informed Mr Stranack he had been banned on the instructions of Croydon council from the library - that he could lobby for extra funding in the future (but not for the financial year starting April 1 2013.)
“I will do all I can in the right places to get that. “I need to be able to sell the costs to them. “I will put as much pressure on whether it’s Tim Pollard or Sarah Bashford. “I will fight for Croydon to give 42 per cent of funding.” (To which Crystal Palace Community Association chairman John Payne told him: “For a political candidate you’re most unpredictable.”)
Among the many points raised were the 60 per cent cut in Croydon’s funding to the library – compared to a local authority average of about 28 per cent. which campaigner Robbie Gibson said had implications for both staffing and opening hours.
While Croydon’s own libraries have had budget increases Upper Norwood’s had been locked by Croydon for some time, said Mr Gibson, who added: “And Croydon’s budget is distinctly not transparent.”
To the campaigners surprise Mr Stranack agreed with them and admitted: “They have all sorts of centralised costs. “They were charging £150,000 for maintenance of one community facility because it was topped up with all the community facilities in Croydon.”
And on being told that Lambeth were more engaged in the trust process than Croydon who were more interested in a procurement process Mr Stranack said: “Obviously I’m a Conservative and I’ve got to show some support for the Conservatives . “I’ve had to deal with Croydon’s procurement process under both parties and it’s a nightmare.”
He then asked campaigners if it would be easier for them to deal with just one authority – and was met with a vociferous ‘No’.
Campaigner Robbie Gibson told him: “The whole ethos of our library is that it is independent, serves five boroughs and should reflect the nature of Crystal Palace.”
In response to further questions campaigners told Mr Stranack they would want an SLA (Service Level Agreement) - a ‘nuts and bolts’ agreement where both sides agree how much a trust running the library would pay - from both Croydon and Lambeth.
Mr Gibson said Lambeth would not agree to a single SLA where Lambeth paid more.
Mr Stranack said they should emphasise the SLA when applying for National Lottery funding. “What I want to fight for is that we keep the library here and to make sure the SLA secures the future. “I’m really impressed with where you’ve got to” he told campaigners.
“I’m pleased I’ve come up here. “I don’t know if I’m going to get elected or not but I still want to stay involved. “I don’t want to walk away from this even if I’m not elected.”
Campaigners praised the library staff. Robbie Gibson told Mr Stranack: “”The staff have been in a maelstrom. “Full credit to them,. “It’s been a horrible situation. “No-one has left. “They do deserve an acknowledgement – and gratitude for keeping it going. “If we didn’t think the staff were good at their job we wouldn’t be supporting them.”
Pam Gray asked him: “Why can’t Croydon understand their figures – or believe them?” To which Mr Stranack responded: “I think local authorities don’t understand their figures a lot”
Mr Stranack revealed that before coming he had spoken to his rival in the Parliamentary by-election for Croydon North – Labour candidate and Lambeth council leader Steve Reed. “There’s a lot of politics going on beneath this.”The reality over the next few years is that the politicians are going to have a ding dong.”
Towards the end of the meeting campaigner Bryher Scudamore told Mr Stranack: “It appears Croydon have decided that anything Upper Norwood is a poison chalice and feel they’re against them. “We’re not. “We just want a good facility.”
EARLIER, as Mr Stranack sat down with campaigners, he admitted: “I wasn’t sure what I was coming to. “I want to listen to your concerns.” Campaigners explained Upper Norwood was the only independent library in the country, the only library authority in its own right.
John Payne, chairman of Crystal Palace Community Association told him: “We’ve got a model here that is much more efficient than Croydon’s. “What they do is fail to put their back office costs and their recharges onto Croydon’s branch libraries. “It doesn’t hold a fair comparison with our library.
Mr Stranack: “So there’s a lot of centralised costs that aren’t shown up?” Mr Payne: “Yes.”
Campaigner Pam Gray said: “Lambeth do it. “Croydon do it. “They all manipulate the figures. “Upper Norwood doesn’t have any back office support – except when the library joint committee was going and that was committee support.
“The principle is that it was for many years jointly funded by Lambeth and Croydon and it was only the issue of local councillors being voted on to the joint committee – and only since the last local elections when the local Conservative councillors lost their seats. “It shouldn’t be.”
Robbie Gibson added that when Lambeth was Labour-controlled there were Conservative councillors from Gipsy Hill ward on the joint committee. “Probably the most fervent and loyal supporters over the years have been Lambeth Conservatives” he added.
Mark Richardson said Croydon Cllr Sarah Bashford, who previously held the culture and libraries portfolio, had said the issue was about governance and was not about funding. Then her successor Cllr Tim Pollard had ‘cut with slash’ the funding.
Mr Stranack told campaigners: “I know from my time working in the council, working in leisure services cuts are notorious – setting a budget in the 1900s and then adding four per cent, and another four per cent.”
Campaigners pointed out concerns about the liability transfer from the councils to a trust, the cutbacks in periodicals and Croydon’s deadline for a trust to take over the library next April – described by Robbie Gibson as ‘a nonsense’.
Campaign chairman Mark Richardson added that in 2004 there was a successful regeneration bid for the library which Croydon will have to pay back. John Payne said that the £75,000 which Croydon were giving “wouldn’t run a corner store.”
Robbie Gibson said it would be difficult to ask Bromley, Southwark or Lewisham to help fund the library – especially when Croydon had the biggest user group.
Campaigners emphasised they were not looking for the right to buy the library – but to have it transferred to them at a peppercorn rent.
UPDATE: Mr Stranack has responded to comments made by Labour candidate Steve Reed following his visit to the library. See story headed ‘Library Sensation – Croydon tried to shut UNJL a year ago’
CROYDON MAY NOT MEET LIBRARY REDUNDANCY COSTS – community trust could foot any bill. “Responsibility lies with Croydon as the employer” – Labour councillor
11 OctANY REDUNDANCY costs for Upper Norwood Joint Library could fall on the community trust – or other organisation – which takes over the library.
Croydon council moved the goalposts at last Friday’s meeting of its scrutiny and overview committee which was considering the ‘call in’ by Labour councillors of its cabinet committee’s controversial decision to give the library just £75,000 next year.
A report to the the council’s cabinet committee meeting of September 17th where the decision to give Upper Norwood just £75,000 was taken had admitted that “The cost of redundancies for the full staff group would be in the region of £100,000 plus and in this circumstance, it is unlikely that support to share the cost would be given by Lambeth” – the implication being that Croydon would have to pick up any redundancy tab.
At Friday’s meeting Cllr Carole Bonner (Lab. Fieldway) asked if any consultations had taken place with staff – and what the expected redundancy costs would be if that situation arose.
Cllr Tim Pollard, lead councillor on the library issue, responding, said “It would be premature to talk to Lambeth about redundancies at this point in time, not knowing what the final structure would be.”
A woman officer then said they had to wait for the decision of that night’s meeting. The process that has to take place with ‘not for profit’ funding meant they had to go to the community and ask for an expression of interest, she said.
“That has to be done in company with Lambeth council. “Until then we won’t know who the transfer will be to. “There’s a very formal process – strict procedures that need to be followed” added the officer who also said staff were being informed of developments. “I sent a briefing note to staff this week” she added.
Cllr Bonner: “I don’t think my question’s been answered.”
Declaring her lay membership of an employment tribunal, Cllr Bonner added: “The responsibility lies with Croydon as the employer. ”I can’t imagine Lambeth will be willing to contribute towards that given the disparity in these costs.” (A reference to Lambeth giving £170,000 to the library next year compared to Croydon’s £75,000).
Committee vice chairman Cllr Sean Fitzsimons (Lab Addiscombe) asked if this would come out of the £245,000 which Lambeth and Croydon were giving. Cllr Pollard (Con. Sanderstead) said this was something they had to sit down and discuss with Lambeth.
Cllr Bonner said: “It would be the community trust’s job to make redundancies.” An officer responded: “Cllr Pollard has illustrated the principle we’d want to work with – to consider that we could achieve that principle.”
Later in the meeting committee chairman Cllr Steve Hollands (Con. Kenley) said library staff needed to understand where this process was going in a very short timetable. Responding, Cllr Bonner said: “It needs to be realistic and you mustn’t forget your legal obligations on consulting staff are onerous.
“Before you start consulting over the proposed transfer you need to have a body to transfer to. “The timetable is challenging given where we are. “I’d be thinking about being careful before taking on any responsibility.”
Cllr Hollands: “My understanding is there will be something in a cabinet paper that’s being put together.”
Paul Greenhalgh, lead officer on the issue, then intervened. “We want to establish some kind of framework but don’t want to do anything that would jeopardise the effective running of the library by a community trust” he said.
“The wording of the cabinet paper gives that responsibility to the lead member and myself to achieve that deadline if we can and, if we can’t, to achieve that as soon as we possibly can thereafter.” (Voice from the public gallery: “It’s constructive dismissal.”)
Deputy committee chairman Cllr Jason Cummings (Con. Heathfield), asking if the timetable allowed time for consultation, was told by an officer: “Our time plan does allow for consultation to take place. “It’s a challenging time scale and we have to be mindful of that.”
Earlier in the meeting Cllr Timothy Godfrey, as invited opposition spokesman for culture, said that to draw up community trust proposals a proper timeframe was needed which made the community trust work and work with the existing staff and plan what type of service was needed.
Robbie Gibson, for the Upper Norwood Library Campaign, told the meeting there was a fear library resources would be “cannibalised” to pay for redundancies. “If we have a budget and a business plan to get this library thriving we have to get this on certainties.”
He quoted advice given to the UNLC by a chartered surveyor: ”Speaking personally, I should be most reluctant to become a trustee/ director of the proposed not for profit organisation since it would appear to be based on a misanalysis of the costs involved suggesting that it should receive a completely inadequate level of funding and is so doomed to failure.”
OWNERSHIP: Cllr Terry Lenton (Con. Coulsdon East) asked who would own the library building and what responsibility would “new management” have for maintenance of the building.
Cllr Pollard: “What’s decided has to be decided in conjunction with Lambeth. “The sensible way would be for the councils to retain the freehold and for the community trust to run it on full repairing and insuring but on a peppercorn basis” he said.
(Copyright Jerry Green 2012. No part of this article to be used without the written permission of the author.)
“IN QUOTES……….”
(Please note: The following comments were all either made at the scrutiny committee meeting, or appeared in written submissions made by the Upper Norwood Library Campaign (UNLC) or Crystal Palace Community Association (CPCA) to the committee.
For the benefit of newcomers to this, some of the comments in the submissions below give a background to long-standing issues, especially Croydon’s continued comparison of Upper Norwood library with its branch libraries.
There has long been a strong suspicion among Upper Norwood library supporters that these figures have been dressed up by officers to cover their backsides and conceal real figures (from both Conservative and Labour administrations) as this could leave those officers jobs at risk – a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas……
“It says something about the loyalty of the existing staff. “They have been victims of a level of uncertainty and political shenanigans that’s totally unacceptable – and it’s only the support of the community that’s kept them going.” - Robbie Gibson, UNLC
“The breaking of the long-standing joint library agreement, without referral to arbitration, was justified by the leader of Croydon council as ‘strong leadership’. “In attempting to justify their actions, Croydon have erased the UNJL from their written constitution.” – John Payne, CPCA
“How has a dispute about governance, been transformed into yet another attack by Croydon council on the joint library and its funding and staff?” – CPCA submission.
“Croydon has failed to mention the demonstrable cost-effectiveness of the UNJLA, claiming in their cabinet report that the joint library is ‘more expensive than a Croydon branch library’.” – CPCA submission.
“The report to September’s Croydon council cabinet meeting provided a table of 2011-12 direct running costs, suggesting that UNJL has enjoyed a far more generous funding allocation, or is vastly less efficient than Selsdon, Thornton Heath or Bradmore Green (Coulsdon) libraries.
“The report shows the full funding allocation to UNJL, but omits the full costs of providing the Croydon integrated library services across the rest of the borough. Thus, it does not compare like with like.” – UNLC submission.
“Croydon branch libraries have the benefit of many centrally procured services which do not appear in their individual budget allocations.
“UNJL has to procure all its own services, so the budget allocation needs to fund each and every cost of providing the library service, and not just the front-of-house services applied to Croydon branch library budgets.” – UNLC submission.
“In 2010/2011, Croydon’s library service spent over £3.3 million on centrally provided services such as customer focus (which includes IT – £1,385,526); customer services (the call centre – £224,537) and human resources (includes recruitment and training – £111,577).
“Although these costs were not applied to its branch libraries, these funds were spent on supporting Croydon’s library service as a whole.
“If divided amongst Croydon’s thirteen branch libraries, this would equate to £255,986 per branch” – UNLC submission.
“Croydon’s offer of £75,000 assumes that UNJL will have a zero budget for the services on which Croydon spends an average of nearly £256,000 per branch” – UNLC submission..
“The dispute over governance has been used as a pretext to resurrect Croydon’s ruling party’s long-running obsession with undermining the stability, functionality and financing of the UNJL, with similar ill-informed attacks made in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2007 and 2010.
“Pre-occupation with making invalid and fundamentally flawed cost comparisons surface repeatedly, presumably as a means of advancing an agenda of control, cuts, takeover or closure.” – CPCA submission.
“Croydon have persistently attempted to undermine the independent status and governance arrangements of the joint library down the years. “The events of 2010-12 are just the latest in a long line of incidents.
“It is not the independent management arrangements that have been a problem but rather Croydon’s total lack of commitment to them and to the people that they have served so well for more than 11 decades.” – CPCA submission.
“Why does Croydon council persistently seek to misrepresent the true value for money and proportionate cost effectiveness of the stand-alone UNJLA, by deploying false comparisons with system integrated and centrally supported branch libraries, which exclude around 40 to 50 per cent (comprising libraries division and corporate overheads) of the cost of the latter, but include all of the pro-rata costs of the former?
“This is a fundamentally flawed and invalid comparison; skewed to justify disproportionate revenue and staffing reductions at the joint library.” - CPCA submission
“The library does not form part of an integrated library network and does not have, or need, access to the costly support overheads (including borough-wide staff and specialists and relief provision) of a libraries department or division.” – CPCA submission.
”Croydon’s imposed and unilateral annexation of the UNJL (and of its staff) has demoralised the people whose commitment, morale and motivation will be critical to the future success of the new ‘not for profit’ management body, which is being supported by both Croydon and Lambeth.
“It is time for Croydon to desist from their inappropriate ‘control agenda’ which is not seen as beneficial to UNJL staff, service users, or Lambeth council residents.” – CPCA submission.
“Croydon council issued two press releases in July 2010 and January 2011. “The first stated that branch libraries in Croydon cost £300,000 each to run. “The second that they supposedly cost only £100,000 – a fall of two thirds in six months!.” – CPCA submission.
“Support for the council’s decision to outsource its borough library service was claimed to be prominent in the findings of a consultation on possible library closures in 2010/11.
“A subsequent Freedom of Information request discovered that only one out of the thousands of respondents had even mentioned the word outsourcing (and this within the context of a different council service).” – CPCA submission.
“Lambeth council contend that the joint committee has not been dissolved and there are significant legal questions over Croydon’s ‘dissolution by press release’.” – CPCA submission.
“The joint library is constantly compared unfavourably and inappropriately to the Croydon library service and a governance dispute has now become a rationale for hugely disproportionate cuts.” – CPCA submission.
“If an independent UNJL is to be sustainable……….Croydon Council needs to provide the same level of financial support to UNJL as it allocates to its own branch libraries elsewhere in the borough” – UNLC submission.
“The Upper Norwood Library Campaign, as the key community organisation involved, stands willing to work closely with those involved to develop a publicly funded community trust to provide an exciting new era for this much loved library.
“A new organisation, the Upper Norwood Library Trust, is being created to take forward discussions with both Croydon and Lambeth Councils with the aim of the local community taking over the governance of the library, working with professional staff and funding from both local authorities” – UNLC submission..
“If an independent UNJL is to be sustainable, Croydon council needs to provide the same level of financial support to UNJL as it allocates to its own branch libraries elsewhere in the borough.” - UNLC submission.
“In past years, UNJL produced regular summaries of performance, expenditure and activities, together with statistical information for consideration by the governing joint committee.
“For the Croydon library service, the only performance and value for money information available for general public scrutiny has been the total cost of libraries and culture in the council budget book.” - UNLC submission.
“Croydon’s presentation of its library budget is completely opaque.” - Robbie Gibson, UNLC
“Nowhere does it say how you’re going to run a proper local library service” - Cllr Sean Fitzsimons (Lab)
“A community trust would be able to run a really good library on that budget” - Cllr Tim Pollard (Con)
“We hope the council will sit down with us and, in the spirit of localism, work with us” – Robbie Gibson, UNLC
“I can’t really answer the question about what their staff are doing” – Cllr Tim Pollard
“It operates on two floors” - Cllr Tim Pollard, showing his in-depth knowledge of Thornton Heath library.
“I appreciate my motives will always be open to criticism” - Cllr Tim Pollard
“It’s a grant made by Croydon to an outside body. “In my view, how much it costs to run Selsdon library, how much it costs to run Norbury library, doesn’t come into it.” - Cllr Steve Hollands, Con.
“We haven’t seen the figures to agree or disagree on” - Cllr George Ayres, Lab. “The figures are in here that the council considers sufficient to run a community library” – Cllr Hollands.
“There’s nothing for the council to go back and look at” - Cllr Jason Cummings (Con)
“You don’t care, do you?” – Cllr Pat Ryan (Lab. observer at meeting)
LIBRARY SPENDING FIGURE ‘PLUCKED FROM THE AIR’ – meeting is told
9 Oct CROYDON’S SPENDING figure for Upper Norwood library had been “plucked from the air” Friday night’s meeting of the council”s scrutiny committee heard.
The accusation came from scrutiny committee vice chairman Cllr Sean Fitzsimons as the committee debated Croydon council cabinet’s controversial decision to give Upper Norwood joint library funding of just £75,000 next year.
Cllr Fitzsimons, told Cllr Tim Pollard, council deputy leader and cabinet member for culture, “You seem unconcerned about the costs and justification behind this decision.” Cllr Fitzsimons (Lab. Addiscombe) said the report was very confident about the £245,000 it would cost to run UNJL. He told Cllr Pollard: “It would be really interesting to hear from you to see how you justify that figure”
Cllr Pollard: “The £245,000 is the contribution of the two boroughs and the income the library receives from various non-book lending activities the library carry out.
“What we’ve done is look at the non-staff based costs of UNJL and there’s no particular reason to suppose this will be different once the community trust is running them and then look at what a staffing model might look at to enable a good library service to be run in that building.”
Cllr Fitzsimons: “You’ve got a figure and think that’s what it will cost to run the service. “Nowhere in there have you said what will provide a service for residents. “You’ve plucked it from the air. “There’s no justification – how many books will that buy? how many staff can help residents? whether you’ll keep opening hours at reasonable levels.
“I’m struggling to understand the basis of your decision. “Nowhere does it say how you’re going to run a proper local library service.”
Cllr Pollard: “With respect you’re hearing what you want to hear.”
Answering questions from deputy chairman Cllr Jason Cummings (Con. Heathfield), Cllr Pollard said Upper Norwood library had slightly longer opening hours. Other than that the bulk of the services were broadly the same.
Thornton Heath was a large library which operated on two floors. “I can’t really answer the question about what other staff are doing” said Cllr Pollard. “There’s a question whether it’s right or fair for one area of the borough to enjoy more than another.”
Cllr Fitzsimons, apparently consulting spread sheets which were not available to those attending the meeting in the public gallery: said: You’ve referred to the Thornton Heath library being comparable. “The 2012 budget paper gave a net expenditure of £284,000 to Thornton Heath with central overhead costs of £138,000.
“Reading these two papers proves the council were probably underfunding the library – or Thornton Heath is getting a better deal. “Can you explain why Thornton Heath gets more out of this?” he asked.
Cllr Pollard said this was the closest analogy to Upper Norwood. “It operates on two floors. “You would expect Thornton Heath to be more expensive to operate than Upper Norwood. but the total budget is likely to be similar” he said. (Thornton Heath, Selsdon and Bradmore Green had been picked as the nearest ‘comparable’ libraries to Upper Norwood for comparison purposes).
Cllr Fitzsimons, quoting figures for Selsdon library of £256,000 plus £120,000 of overheads, said: ”I’m confused about your financial justification unless you’re planning to do substantial cuts to other libraries.”
Cllr Pollard: “Upper Norwood is completely different and in the future going forward it will be completely different.”There’s no link between the Upper Norwood model and the model for our libraries going forward. “It’s far more efficient with flexible staff rostering “The point I keep making: this organisation would still have corporate recharges and corporate costs.”
The invited Labour opposition speaker Cllr Timothy Godfrey, in defence of the library, said the issue had generated a large amount of public reaction. Referring to the crowded public gallery on a Friday night he urged the committee to look again at the decision.
There were a number of issues including the lack of proper comparison with Croydon libraries costs - and some assertions made in the paper before the committee “which weren’t basically true” said Cllr Godfrey.
He asked the committee to go through the report in detail and go through the actual costs in the paper before them.
“I ask you where your loyalties lie – are you here to protect front line services or back office costs and the very large council contracts the council has?” asked the shadow spokesman for culture.
He welcomed the issue of a community trust “It’s a model that’s the ideal way to engage in running other libraries. “But we need a proper timeframe that makes a community trust work and work with existing staff and what type of service would be needed.”
It would be acceptable to reduce the current grant to UNJL but to cut it from £200000 to £75,000 was not a sustainable way, added Cllr Godfrey.
“It will probably damage the library service and make it impossible to deliver. “Why haven’t savings been made elsewhere in the libraries budget?” he demanded to know.
He looked forward to the community challenging the details behind the report and the committee looking at this “in some cross-party decision”.
As the meeting neared its end and comments from the gallery became more vociferous, Cllr George Ayres (Lab. New Addington) complained: ”We haven’t seen the figures to agree or disagree”
Cllr Hollands: “The figures are in here that the council considers sufficient to run a community library.”
Cllr Cummings said there was nothing for the council to go back and look at. “I see no justification for a community library anywhere to operate on what Upper Norwood is operating on.”
Cllr Hollands said the library staff needed to understand “where this process is going in a very short time table. Cllr Cummings asked if this allowed time for consultation. Cllr Hollands said his understanding was that there would be something in a cabinet paper that was being put together.
(Copyright Jerry Green 2012. No part of this article to be reproduced without the written permission of the author.)
GALLERY SKETCH
(by our special correspondent Quentin Letsby-Avenue)
PEOPLE ARRIVING at Friday’s meeting were given a ‘Welcome to the scrutiny committee’ meeting which confusingly has a (Conservative) deputy chairman and a (Labour) vice chairman – with the Conservative deputy chairman sitting with other councillors and the Labour vice chairman sitting to the right of the scrutiny committee chairman Cllr Steve Hollands.
The committee is a bit like an appeal court – but clearly the Conservative majority on the committee had decided their verdict in advance.
Cllr Tim Pollard opened his defence. “The Chamber would be very aware of the background to this” he said, repeating the Croydon Tory charge that it was all Lambeth’s fault (Honest M’lud).
They had carried out a number of scenarios “relating to the future provision or not” of library services “in that area”. (I think he just meant ‘that area’ rather than ’THAT area’).
(The committee then heard from Robbie Gibson, for the Upper Norwood Library Campaign; Mandy Sciberras for the Gipsy Hill Residents Association; and John Payne for the Crystal Palace Community Association Their submissions will be reported later.)
They were followed by Upper Norwood ward Cllr John Wentworth (Lab). In arguably the best speech of the evening he said it was “not fair” to say Upper Norwood could be treated as a branch library. Cllr Pollard had been very critical when Labour councillors had told the cabinet meeting they would match Lambeth’s funding
“By just putting the arbitrary figure of £250,000 ‘and we’re just going to make up the difference.’
“If next year Lambeth was to cut their grant for the library to £70,000 would Croydon come up with the other £170,000? “I doubt that very much indeed.
“No other library in Croydon has been treated in this way. “I don’t understand why you consider it reasonable for one library to be treated so unfairly.
“Of all the libraries and services I see in this borough that”s the one institution that stands the best chance of having a community trust and community involvement. “People are passionate about it. “They have the skills and confidence to run that library but it has to be given a fair chance.
“£75,000 doesn’t give that a fair chance. “I don’t believe this is a party political issue . “If the cabinet are serious about giving this library a fair chance they will reverse this decision to secure this library’s future.”
Questions to speakers – and their responses - then followed. Mr Gibson said Croydon’s presentation of its library budget was “completely opaque. “At £75,000 we are fighting to stop drowning.” He later added that it would be in Croydon’s interest, from a PR (public relations) point-of-view for Croydon in backing the library.
“We hope the council will sit down with us and in the spirit of localism and work with us. “This Campaign is not going to go away.
Cllr Terry Lenton (Con. Coulsdon East) addressing the issue of a community library, asked if funds could be got from Bromley or Southwark or Lewisham. “Would it not be unreasonable to expect a contribution?” she asked. (Actually – yes, it would. I recall Cllr Eddy Arram, addressing an annual meeting of the Upper Norwood Library Campaign, recounting his days as Croydon libraries committee chairman asking Bromley for some contribution – and getting zero.)
Mr Gibson had a great answer for this. “We’re dealing with two local authorities. “Dealing with five would be even harder. “It’s been tried before. “For a community trust library to be a success we have to work with certainty. “If we’ve a budget and business plan to get this library thriving we have to get this on certainties.
And in a prize sideswipe added: “Why should Southwark and Bromley contribute when they feel Croydon have failed?”
Questions of cabinet members and officers then followed. Cllr George Ayres (Lab, New Addington) in questions to Cllr Pollard, said the burden the library service was carrying was totally disproportionate to the cost the front line services have. “The problem Upper Norwood has is Croydon council costings. “I’m surprised that’s not the prism through which this problem has been looked at.”
Cllr Pollard “That’s a very big philosophical question – one of the conundrums comparing Upper Norwood and other libraries is comparing apples and bananas. “That’s what we tried to do. “We’re not trying to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes” Baa…Baa.. Humbug.
“The fundamental difference is UNJL lives on its own. “It has a number of expenses you can’t track back and charge against. “In what cost centre do you charge the running of Croydon town hall against?” asked Cllr Pollard.
(At this point a words of explanation: It would appear certain centralised costs are loaded onto libraries in Croydon. But it appears to be very difficult to establish just what these costs are. Whether Croydon town hall costs are loaded onto branch libraries was not made clear.The cost of running Croydon town hall is a new subject on the whole library funding issue.)
“I don’t want to be political but we’re vastly more efficient” added Cllr Pollard (who obviously hadn’t been briefed about BBC TV’s Newsnight programme the previous evening which revealed that n the first seven months of this year, Croydon spent more than £1.5 MILLION on ONE bed and breakfast provider, EuroHotels, alone. The BBC TV News website reports – and I quote: “Croydon now has 180 such cases – accounting for most of the families in B&B accommodation in the borough. “This is an extraordinary jump from last year, when Croydon recorded that it had no families in such circumstances – though Newsnight has evidence of several families who spent months in B&B accommodation provided by Croydon in 2011 – which suggests that official figures may hide the true scale of the problem.”) Official figures? Hmmmm…….
Back to Cllr Pollard: “When you look at how UNJL spends its money the fundamental difference is the amount of money spent on staff – each of our branch libraries operate on half the number UNJL does. “Is it fair across the borough to say one area will be funded to operate in a completely different way? “That doesn’t make sense.”
(Note to local planning and amenity groups: this is one to use against Croydon in the future. Croydon want to build 700 new homes in the Upper Norwood area. So if Upper Norwood gets 700 (which we haven’t got room for) then so too will Sanderstead, Selsdon and Ballards and other Tory-held council wards. I mean, after all, why should one area be treated in a different way?)
Cllr Ayres said that using the figures from the report and the total cost, the figure being allocated to Upper Norwood would be £520,000 – to which Cllr Pollard, reprising comments he’d made at the cabinet meeting said “”Absolutely fascinating way to run the finances of the town.”
Respoinding to Cllr Fitzsimons,Cllr Pollard had said Thornton Heath was the closest analogy to Upper Norwood. “It operates on two floors. “You would expect Thornton Heath to be more expensive to operate than Upper Norwood. but the total budget is likely to be similar.”
And then, in a classic ‘Yes Minister’ – type moment, Cllr ‘Two Floors’ Pollard added: “I appreciate my motives will always be open to criticism.”
Picking up on an earlier comment from Cllr Pollard, Cllr Fitzsimons said UNJL can exist on £240,000 “so I’m very interested what you think the purpose of a library is for – and what do you think libraries do?”
Cllr Pollard said this was a difficult question to answer .
“Everyone has a different view of a library” he said. – newspapers – homework – every user had a different perspective. Responding, Cllr Fitzsimons said it was “good to get an understanding about totalitarian views on libraries.”
Cllr Pollard then turned his attention to community libraries. “What do community libraries normally run on?” he asked. “If this goes through and UNJL runs on £280,000 it will probably be the most generously-funded community library in the entire country.
“Lewisham’s libraries are mainly run on about £100,000 and in Lambeth libraries are operating on £100,000 – £120,000. “You missed the point that these costs, whether you account them onto libraries or not, still have to be met by the council.”
Asked about the rationale behind the timing of a community library running from April 1st Cllr Pollard said that what went to cabinet was an assumption. “It’s a challenging timescale but one that none the less is achievable. “What I’m not interested in is going into freefall and being stalled again and again.”
As the meeting went into the final act, Cllr Hollands had declared of the library funding, somewhat bizarrely, “It’s a grant made by Croydon to an outside body. “In my view how much it costs to run Selsdon library, how much it costs to run Norbury library doesn’t come into it.”
Gallery: “Show some integrity.” “Don’t just serve your party – serve the people”
Cllr Hollands, taking a sideswipe at earlier comments by Cllr Godfrey, said very few people had attended the cabinet committee meeting when it had first been discussed.
He then asked Cllr Pat Ryan (Lab. Upper Norwood) to remove himself “if he continues to disrupt the meeting” (From the front row of the gallery I’d only heard Cllr Ryan – one of five Upper Norwood and South Norwood ward councillors attending the meeting as observers – make one comment of just five words).
A few minutes later the following exchange ensued:
Cllr Hollands (addressing an unidentified person in the council chamber): “Would you leave?”
Voice: “No”
Cllr Hollands: “It’s exactly the sort of behaviour I would have expected.”
I suspect the people attending Friday’s meeting probably feel the same about the Conservatives behaviour that night.
(Copyright Jerry Green 2012. No part of this article to be reproduced without the written permission of the author.)
AMAZING SCENES IN CROYDON TOWN HALL – LEGAL CHALLENGE OVER LIBRARY?
6 OctCROYDON COUNCIL could face a legal challenge over the future of Upper Norwood joint library after amazing scenes rarely – if ever – seen in an English council’s town hall last night (Friday).
No vote was actually taken by Croydon’s scrutiny and overview committee over the controversial decision by Croydon’s cabinet to give the library just £75,000 funding next year.
But it appeared that scrutiny committee chairman Cllr Steve Hollands had decided the cabinet decision was the right one – and that was that.
As the meeting neared its end after almost three hours of questions and debate Cllr Hollands repeatedly threatened to clear the public gallery following continued verbal criticism from library campaigners and supporters..
Cllr Hollands, withdrawing a Labour recommendation to ask the cabinet to give the library funding beyond two years and which he had initially agreed to support, announced: “The gallery has caused that. “The recommendation has been lost.”
He then announced: “The meeting is closed.” No vote of any sort had been taken.
Earlier in the meeting Cllr Hollands had declared of the library funding, somewhat bizarrely, “It’s a grant made by Croydon to an outside body. “In my view how much it costs to run Selsdon library, how much it costs to run Norbury library doesn’t come into it.”
Croydon council deputy leader Cllr Tim Pollard, who addressed the cabinet meeting where the decision to give the library just £75,000 was taken, said each of Croydon’s branch libraries operated on half the number of staff Upper Norwood had.
“No-one has said let’s start from the bottom up. “What matters is to do it top down . “That’s what we sought to do and how we arrived at the figure we did.”
Members of the public arriving at the meeting were given written submissions from the Upper Norwood Library Campaign, Crystal Palace Community Association and from the Mayor of Lambeth Cllr Steve Reed.
Cllr Read, in a letter dated yesterday (5th) said: “Lambeth notes that Croydon council’s decision comes after a series of previous attempts to cut funding while trying to avoid the public blame for doing so.
“We dispute Croydon’s claim that they were forced to pull out of the joint agreement because of alleged breaches by Lambeth and believe they made this claim simply to cover up their decision to cut funding.
“Labour maintains that the joint agreement was in fact breached by Croydon when they refused to appoint local ward councillors to the joint committee.
“We did not threaten to cut our funding in response – we merely asked that Croydon constitute the committee properly so that its work could continue.” The letter was co-signed by Cllr Sally Prentice, Lambeth’s cabinet member for culture.
- Campaigners were left shell-shocked in the wake of last night’s meeting and have probably woken up this morning (Saturday) wondering if it was all just a horrible dream. The bad news is: It wasn’t. There were a wealth of issues to come out of last night’s meeting . It’s 10.12 Saturday am so I haven’t had a chance to re-examine many of them, among which is the Conservative argument about how the council adds overheads to their branch libraries.(Although I wear glasses, I don’t write for the Daily Planet and my name ain’t Clark Kent.) Among those in the public gallery last night was one lady member of the library staff. How she felt during (and after) the meeting I can barely begin to imagine. Last night may have felt like the end. This morning it could just be the beginning. For a start there’s a by-election pending in Croydon North. As far as Upper Norwood folk are concerned the Conservative Parliamentary candidate won’t just be picking up the proverbial poison chalice. They will be picking up a chalice which is totally toxic…….
